Fire Axe

Four deluxe cycles later, Fire Axe remains one of the best level 0 weapons in the game, though its role is incredibly different from something like a .45 Thompson or a Shrivelling. The point about this card's accuracy has only gotten more true over time: with the exception of a three+ action'd Chicago Typewriter, there is no other weapon in the game that inherently lets you boost your by 6, not even upgraded weapons. Reading the card, your instinct might be that the two abilities are at odds with one another. Do I keep lots of resources to hit with accuracy for 1 damage, or do I keep resources low so that I only fight at a modest boost but for 2 damage? Moreover, is it worth it to continually spend resources into a weapon instead of spending them elsewhere? How easily can I manage having 0 resources?

Let's first talk about the economy in place for this card. Ideally you want to run this in a deck that isn't very resource hungry. Your other cards should be mostly 0, 1, or 2 resources in cost. This way you can dedicate more of your pool to fighting. There are now a few cards that can be used to recoup resources quickly but consistently:

  • Madame Labranche can refund you 1 resource any time you use your Axe to deplete your pool
  • Lone Wolf gets you an extra resource a turn
  • Forbidden Knowledge puts 4 resources in reserve that you can take as needed without them counting towards your pool
  • David Renfield can work similarly to Labranche, though with added risk from the doom you put on him.

Using these cards, it is perfectly viable to have 2 or 3 spare resources each turn to throw into a Fire Axe test, or instead to recoup the resources from last turn's Fire Axe test to spend on something else. The idea here is that you can maintain the use of this card without sacrificing tempo on anything else you need to be doing.

Someone wielding the Fire Axe probably isn't a dedicated fighter, as sinking and recouping resources to sink into it again is not a very consistently possible thing to do in one turn. Rather, the Fire Axe's biggest strength is it lets people who otherwise cannot fight at all help clear the board or defend themselves. If your Mark Harrigan has to dart all the away across the map to save you just so you can Intel Report safely, you're wasting actions. If your Zoey Samaras has to clear a Wizard of the Order you drew to keep the agenda from advancing next turn for you, you might lose rounds. And if you're playing solo, you're gonna need to fight on your own. How do you manage that as Wendy Adams? Fire Axe is the answer to all of those problems.

This is a card that works best in investigators who A: Would not have a good time taking any other weapon and B. Have the economic infrastructure to use it consistently. This means you want it with investigators with either low or limited weapon access. Here are some investigators who love to hack Eldritch horrors to pieces:

  • Preston Fairmont. The 4 resources he gets every turn on Family Inheritance are not in his resource pool. That means you can take more than one test a turn at +2 damage and at least +4 without any resource support; alternatively it gives Preston the ability to both play a card and Fire Axe at +6 and 2 damage in the same turn, in either order. Again, this is before you add in any infrastructure like Madame Labranche or Lone Wolf.

  • Patrice Hathaway. Patrice gets a Violin that will often act as an extra Madame Labranche, yielding her 3 resources a turn instead of 2. In fact, with Cornered and Recall the Future, or enough icons like from Last Chance, Patrice can follow up her resource committed Fire Axe tests with card committed Fire Axe tests, meaning even at 0 resources pumped into it she can still hit for 2 damage. As if that's not enough, it's the perfect card to deal with Watcher from Another Dimension. In fact, it even works if you fail the first test, as if you can hit it on the follow up, you'll hit for 2 damage and kill it exactly.

  • Wendy Adams. Wendy can rely on events like Waylay and Backstab to do most of her fighting, but her subclass access means she can pile on resources and use the Axe as a way to close out gaps of 1 damage, or go for 2 damage in a pinch.

  • Minh Thi Phan. investigators are usually constrained on weapon choice. Mind over Matter and "I've got a plan!" only work as one shot effects, not as consistent defense. Minh however is an investigator who runs cheap, draws lots of cards, and whose is low. Fire Axe is a solid weapon choice for her so long as you're not needing both hand slots for something else.

  • Silas Marsh. Silas, like Minh, likes to run cheap, with lots of skill cards and draw. Fire Axe can let him boost his already high to almost guarantee a hit for 1. He probably wants other 2 damage weapons alongside it, like Meat Cleaver, but Fire Axe is a good backup.

Some slightly more left field picks:

  • Finn Edwards. His base is 3, but he often dislikes fighting with other weapons, electing instead to do damage in the same way Wendy usually does damage. He can make great use of Pickpocketing 2 and Hatchet Man (which is already thematically fitting) just to follow that up with a Fire Axe test for 2 or 3 damage.

  • Marie Lambeau. She can take Forbidden Knowledge and David Renfield to use Fire Axe as a means to fight without using a Shrivelling charge.

  • Jenny Barnes. This depends heavily on what you want your version of Jenny to be doing, but the cost of boosting the Axe is lower for her than most investigators, so it can be a great closer of 1 damage in the right Jenny deck.

Finally, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention Dark Horse. This is a card whose most consistent application is to turn your +6 tests on Fire Axe into +7 . Whether that's worth the tempo loss of 3 resources, a card, and an action depends heavily on the chaos bag (and therefore the difficulty as well as the campaign), the investigator you chose, and whether or not you can follow up a Fire Axe attack with a test in some other stat. For example, a Preston Fairmont deck might use skill pumps like Dig Deep to get most of its work done, in which case Dark Horse can be used to great effect on or tests (admittedly tends to be more narrow in its application mid round, but there are treacheries where this is relevant). Alternatively, Preston might choose instead to buy most of his evades and clues, via Lola Santiago, Intel Report, and Decoy. In this sort of deck, Dark Horse loses value. So think critically about how much you need that +1 boost, how often you can get it, and whether or not the other boosts are worthwhile. We often call resource low decks "Dark Horse" decks, but in reality Dark Horse has become less and less valuable of a card among them. Fire Axe, meanwhile, has only gotten better.

Fire Axe is the weapon of choice for non-fighters. It keeps your weakest investigators alive and saves them time to do the things they're naturally good at doing. It's for that reason that it's managed to become my personal favorite weapon in the game. It's not always easy to use, but it's well worth it.

StyxTBeuford · 426
I’m honestly a little shocked it’s stayed off the taboo list since it’s pretty easy to turn this into a weapon whos consistency exceeds that of machete. — Difrakt · 612
It's an excellent card, but Preston aside (because of that interaction with Family Inheritance), it requires a lot of investment and building around to be effective. I don't think it's taboo-worthy. — CaiusDrewart · 1498
Also because machete exists in a class with lots of other level0 weapon options, while fire axe doesn’t. I imagine we might see it taboo’d in an expansion o after another option appears. — Death by Chocolate · 12
*if it is still dominating the meta by then. — Death by Chocolate · 12
Patrice Hathaway

INTRODUCTION

Hello all, with the release of the new Dream Eaters Deluxe, Patrice has easily become many people's favorite investigator. Her deck-cycling ability opens up new possibilities, making you re-evaluate cards you may have not even glanced at since the Core and think about deck-building in a whole new way. And most importantly, she is incredibly fun!

This is a brief review with some general deck-building guidelines. It is not meant to be comprehensive, but it is meant to get you thinking like a Patrice player.

SUMMARY

Patrice is easily one of the most versatile investigators out there. You can make her into a deadly monster-killer with Fire Axe, Madame Labranche, Patrice's Violin, and Last Chance, or Shrivelling and Wither. Or you can create a powerful cluever with Winging It, Drawn to the Flame, St. Hubert's Key, Sixth Sense, "Look what I found!", and Fortuitous Discovery. Or you can make a well-rounded Patrice that includes all of the above, able to transition from clue-getting, to enemy management, to test-taker at a moment's notice.

Patrice's signature asset, Patrice's Violin, is a hidden superpower. It allows you to dump useless cards from your hand for another card from your deck, or ditch Improvised cards (Improvised Weapon, Impromptu Barrier, Winging It) so they can be played from your discard pile, or ditch them for a resource. Do not underestimate the latter. Between Madame Labranche and Patrice's Violin, Patrice can earn up to 3 resources are turn without expending any actions!

Patrice is an amazing solo investigator who also does just as well in multiplayer. She can flex to fill whatever is needed from turn to turn, and even use her icons to support her fellow investigators. She is highly versatile and can do anything you need her to.

But how do you go about building a Patrice deck? Below is a short guide that will give you some insight into how she works, followed by a brief list of some of Patrice's favorite upgrades. This summary references the deck build I originally included it in (https://arkhamdb.com/decklist/view/15698/the-desperate-violinist-1.0), which showcases a lot of Patrice's strengths. However, the actual deck building guidelines apply to anyone building a Patrice deck of any kind. I hope you find it helpful.

GENERAL PATRICE DECK BUILDING GUIDE

Regardless of how you build your Patrice deck, you need to be mindful of 4 main things:

1 - CARD ICONS

Let me introduce you to an idea that is central to Patrice: Average Hand Icons per Round (AHIR). As a general rule, the more usable icons you have in hand each round, the better Patrice will do. As I explain below, you cannot rely on having your key assets out in any reasonable amount of time--and there may be games where you have few opportunities to put them in play. See below for why.

1a. Watch your Icons!: I cannot stress this enough. The single most important thing about building a Patrice deck is to WATCH YOUR ICONS! Patrice cycles through her deck within usually about 8-9 rounds, without draw help. This means you want to commit every card possible in her hand every turn, except for the assets you are going to play that round, which means you want to ensure your hand is filled with usable icons. It can be tempting to include a lot of No Icon cards, but even with only 8 (Take Heart x2, Lucky! x2, Emergency Cache x2, Winging It x2), this means on average you will only have 4 cards with icons in hand--make that 3 if you are holding the Watcher or another hidden card. So be mindful of just how many of these you include! Ask yourself if you REALLY need them. For example, I didn't include Emergency Cache in this build because (a) it takes an action to play and; (b) Patrice doesn't really need it. Both Take Heart and Lucky! were left out because in this deck Patrice doesn't typically fail a test unless she draws a Tentacle. I'm not saying don't include these cards, I'm just saying to always watch your icons! When you're playing your Patrice deck, keep an eye on how frequent your icons appear in your hand and use that as a way to calibrate your deck. Whenever you include ANY card, always look for good icons. If it doesn't have good icons, then it better have good reason to be in the deck!

1b. She Likes It Wild: Patrice LOVES wild icons! Cards with plenty of wild icons like Last Chance, Unexpected Courage, Prophesy, and the level 3 Rise to the Occasion are amazing in her. But even in this deck, having single wild icons cards can help, such as with Defiance. You can use Wild icons for any test, so the more, the merrier. However, just be careful not to fill you deck with too many single-icon cards. If you can use double or triple icon cards, then do that instead!

1c. You Don't Have a Plan: The Improvised cards (Improvised Weapon, Impromptu Barrier, Winging It) are a bit of an exception. They can clog your hand with no icons, but since they can be played from the discard pile, they essentially extend your hand size and allow Patrice to keep them for when she wants to use them. Besides, they can be discarded by Cornered or her Violin.

2 - NUMBER OF ASSETS

2a. Don't be Greedy: So many assets look delicious in Patrice and it is so easy to build her deck with a lot of assets. Don't do it! But how many is too many? Here's some general advice about assets in general. They are powerful, yes, but assets generally require a lot Resources and an action to play. You can easily fall into a trap of endlessly putting down more and more assets, sometimes accruing something like 3 full rounds of nothing but play actions! Even in this lean deck, a full rig is 5 assets (Violin, Peter Sylvestre, St. Hubert's Key, Sixth Sense, and Mists of R'lyeh)--7 with Cornered! 7! That's 2 1/3 entire turns of nothing but play actions! That's a huge dent in tempo.

2b. Tempo - Presto Prestissimo!: One of Patrice's greatest strengths is her fast tempo. First turn: drop an asset into play and start taking tests! Every asset you play takes a chip out of this tempo. As a general rule of thumb I plan my decks so that the investigator can do their job with only 1 asset down and be mostly loaded with 2 assets out. Carefully consider what assets Patrice actually needs to fulfill her function and try to ditch as many as you can for cards with better icons. If you can avoid Emergency Cache, please do! It has no icons and requires an action to play. Meanwhile, between Patrice's Violin and Madame Labranche you can earn up to 3 Resources a turn for NO ACTIONS.

2c. Iconic, but not Really: Remember how I said to WATCH YOUR ICONS? Guess what assets typically don't have? That's right, not that many icons! Most assets typically only have a single icon. So the fewer excess assets you include in your deck, the better icons you will have in hand on average.

2d. Can I Go Out and Play?: Patrice is unique in that she will see every single asset in her deck likely twice. So she has to maintain a pool of resources to allow her to play the asset she needs when it comes up. There are times when she needs an asset and it's in her hand, and she even has the Resources to play it, but the scenario and/or Encounter deck have other ideas. I have had games where I couldn't put Cornered down until the second time through her deck! You must keep this in mind when choosing your assets. Even with 2x Cornered, you cannot rely on them to succeed, especially since you may not see them for 7-8 rounds!

2e. Out of Rotation: Almost contradictory to everything else I've said before, it's important to realize that every asset you put in play is taken out of Patrice's deck rotation! This makes you more likely to draw powerful skill and event cards, like Ward of Protection and makes fast assets or events that stay in play like Open Gate and Premonition absolutely delectable. I'm sure someone will use this concept to make a killer Patrice deck!

3 - RECURRING CARDS

3a. Keep 'Em Coming!: Due to Patrice's unique deck cycling, she will see cards more often than any other investigator. This means that (a) she is guaranteed to see every card in her deck at least once, usually twice; and (b) she will have the opportunity to use a single card 2-3 times a scenario...which means if you are packing 2x of something like Ward of Protection x2 you may get to use it 4-6 times in a scenario--that's amazing in solo! So this means the faster she cycles through her deck, the more often she will see her most powerful cards. This is a good reason to include cards with card draw, such as the Neutral skills, and keep her deck as lean as possible. I'm sure someone will figure out a way to thin out her deck and leave only a small cycle set left, enabling her to play powerful cards 7,8 and even 9 times.

4 - CIRCUMSTANTIAL CARDS

4a. Chance & Circumstance: Cards that are circumstantial in any other investigator become highly circumstantial in Patrice. Because of this, you will want to stick to cards that have a wide range of use, such as Ward of Protection, Defiance, etc. It is for this reason that I did not include the level 0 Rise to the Occasion--it's too circumstantial. As you play your Patrice deck, pay close attention to how often you use certain cards. If something ends up being a dead card or too circumstantial from turn to turn, cut it!

Conclusion

I hope you enjoy this deck and/or found some good advice in the deck building guide. Patrice is my favorite investigator and I want everyone else to experience the amazing fun that is Patrice Hathaway!

TOP UPGRADES

Cornered: considered Patrice's second signature, Cornered x2 allows her to optimize her card icons every turn.

Peter Sylvestre: the +1 and +1 can make a big difference. Peter also allows her to be more liberal with how she handles horror, especially if you are using Shrivelling.

Miss Doyle: the Cats of Ulthar help Patrice supplement her lower stats and, since she will see her cards more than any other investigator, she will see them often!

Survival Instinct: this is one of the best solo Survivor cards. In Patrice, it allows her to evade the Watcher in her hand AND all the enemies at her location AND move. 'Nuff said.

Rise to the Occasion: The level 0 version of Rise to the Occasion is too circumstantial, but the upgraded version is often no less than 3 Wild icons. Wow!

Defiance: Ignore bad stuff tokens? And with how often Patrice sees her cards? Yes!

Ward of Protection: Same as Defiance. It's just good and she can take the horror. The level 2 Ward of Protection allows her to help her fellow investigators out.

Alter Fate: Again, Patrice sees her cards often, so she can get a lot of use out of this card. Especially in higher count multiplayer, there is always someone who could use this.

True Survivor: do you know what's better than playing the same great card twice in 8 rounds? What about 4 times using Resourceful? Do you know what's EVEN better?!? What about 6 times? What about 8 times?! Patrice can play her favorite Survivor card twice, pull both of them back with two copies of Resourceful, then pull back both copies of Resourceful with True Survivor...and do it all over again. By the time she's done she will have drawn into True Survivor again. What about 2x True Survivor? The potential is dizzying! Patrice has access to a lot of great Innate cards, one of which is the incredibly amazing Rise to the Occasion, which is Innate, meaning it can be targeted by True Survivor, which can be targeted by Resourceful...which can be targeted by True Survivor, etc. Have fun :)

TheBlackHorror · 2318
One upgrade I think you glossed over is Recall the Future. Like Cornered you'll easily get two of them out within 9 turns, and each copy can essentially negate an entire token from the bag should you draw it. Recall and Cornered to me are her first upgrades every time. I'm also not big on Resourceful or True Survivor, or any discard recursion at all for her. It's actually hard in my experience to use up her entire hand, so it's not usually worthwhile to grab more cards unless you have a way that turn to use them all. Otherwise I agree with pretty much everything. Fire Axe, Labranche, Last Chance, and Premonition I think should be everyone's first 6-8 cards in this deck (Premonition is ridiculously good for her). Assets you can sometimes run as a 1 of, for example Fire Axe, as important as it is, is perfectly fine to run as a one of if you've also got Shrivelling, as a second copy is mostly dead and you can manage for a while without it. — StyxTBeuford · 426
Actually I'll modify that statement: I think *most* everyone's first 6-8 cards should be Fire Axe etc. Patrice's pool is really wide and I don't want to write off the fact that other hand items and allies might be worth including over them. Sign Magick and David Renfield, for example. — StyxTBeuford · 426
I think it’s a typo in 2e, but Find Gate and Premonition are Events (although they attach). Also, while I like Resourceful for recursion of toolkit cards, True Survivor doesn’t seem worth the action, xp, or resources in Patrice. I’ve also found Forbidden Knowledge very powerful and consistent and means she can even get up to 4 actionless resources in a round. It’s downside is mitigated if you run the boyfriend or a Fearless or two. — Death by Chocolate · 12
Thanks @Death by Chocoloate! That was an oversight of mine. I amended the language to make sense. — TheBlackHorror · 2318
Fortuitous Discovery

It's ok in decks who have insane drawpower but it's pretty mediocre or outright terrible when you don't innately draw quickly.

Fortuitous Discovery isn't good when you get just the one copy, you need to find the second and the third to make it do anything at all, and the payoff is SLOW, the first copy does nothing, that's terrible, you drew a card only for it to do nothing?! Winging It is'nt a bad card but that first play for just -1 on an investigate difficulty is a hard sell, there's also no skill icons, how annoying. The second copy is a 1-cost Deduction, for a conditional benefit that's still just strictly worse then Deduction I'm having some serious doubts here. The third copy, 2 resources for +2 and grabbing +2 clues, huzzah, it's doing things now! Cool things sure but the ride was so bumpy that it's hard to actually enjoy the result now that it's finally here.

So, either it's just OK, or it's seriously BAD, but what if you use some strategy?

Frankly. I seriously believe that this card got kicked in the nuts in the final stage of development, somebody said "Fortuitous Discovery costing 1 resource base and discovering x+1 clues is too good", the light on printing this thing was green, the art commissioned, so it was too late to back out and print something else, so we got.. this thing....

Right now the standout good place to put this thing is Minh Thi Phan with as much drawpower as she can muster, we're talking Grisly Totem Minh Thi Phan with some classic skill cards. Even then, I can think of much more useful things to do with those 3 card slots. Winging It to start with.

Tsuruki23 · 794
I'm pretty sure by Shards of the Void you mean Segment of Onyx. — ak45 · 67
The Hungering Blade

EDIT: Grammar

So this card (and it's coupled weakness Bloodlust) is a bit confusing, so I'm going to give a quick summary here so that you don't have to switch between the two cards's pages:

  • The Hungering Blade by itself give no extra and does +1 damage. It's closest equivalent is a .32 Colt: same cost, same lack of extra , same damage. Just without limited uses and you're allowed only one copy in your deck.
  • To get the full power of this card, you need to kill six enemies with this amount of damage and draw the three Bloodlusts that got shuffled into your deck; doing so takes your Colt and upgrades it into .45 Automatic, then a .45 Thompson, then a Roland's .38 Special (clue included).
  • HOWEVER, at any point you have a Bloodlust attached to The Hungering Blade, you may expend one Bloodlust to give your attack a further +1 damage; I'm fairly certain this cant be done after the skill test, so this is equivalent of -1 for +1 damage.

This actually reminds me of the good old core set Knife; two options for an attack, one standard, and one with extra damage but you discard something. And just like Knife, not utilising the secondary attack is a waste of the cost to play it. If you're using The Hungering Blade, then you should have a decent chance of succeeding combat checks from the moment you equip it, otherwise you'll be hard pressed to get those offerings. The extra then is a nice bonus, but not something you should be relying on, especially since +1 damage is more valuable than +1 attack.

Now about the horror incursion. Despite being the most suited for extra damage without extra , Mark Harrigan CANNOT take this card; doing so would be suicide alongside Shell Shock. Given that the other 5 investigator cannot take it, and anything less than 4 would leave one struggling to get offerings in the first place, the list of viable investigators shrinks to the rest of the guardians (that aren't Carolyn Fern), Joe Diamond, and William Yorick: 6 total. Even so, NONE of the investigators mentioned above have higher than 6 sanity, and given the random nature of your deck, you are subject to the whims of fate with this card (I mean, even more so than usual).

So... I don't think highly of this card. Some real jank would be required to get it going, like a Desperate "Ashcan" Pete, or a Wealthy Jenny Barnes. But I'm not holding my breath.

EDIT: As was pointed out, Ashcan and Jenny can't take this card, so please ignore the last paragraph.

Lucaxiom · 22
Played it succesfully in Mark. Was no suicide. — trazoM · 1
Diana Stanley? — mattastrophic · 853
It is level 1, so Pete and Jenny can’t run it. Wealthy Skids could, and Tommy run enough sponge assets that the horror isn’t a big problem. The bottom line is that the blade is a low xp conditionless, actionless +1 damage that may require outside boosting and sometimes kills draws or deals Horror. Especially if you’re an on-the Hunt deck, keeping up the kills shouldn’t be hard, and in The Dream Eaters specifically, a Swarm enemy can easily fill up its offerings very fast. — Death by Chocolate · 12
Crystallizer of Dreams

EDIT: Well I inserted my foot into my mouth well and good, thinking The Painted World worked with this card. I'll keep the post as it was, but please ignore the part pertaining to Sefina Rousseau.

ORIGINAL POST.

Hmm, a rouge card that synergies with event cards; now who could stand to benefit the most from that?

In all seriousness, this is a bit like Backpack in that you either build a deck around it, or you notice you have a large number of events in your deck already and might as well add it.

Any rouge that takes it will likely also want to consider Narrow Escape, Swift Reflexes, and Decoy for their symbols.

As for which investigator to give it you, signature events cards are a good place to look. Sefina get a whopping THREE extra Guts or Manual Dexterities, thanks to The Painted World, before she's even starts choosing cards, so for her, it's an auto-include. "Skids" O'Toole might want a look, what with On the Lam having the most skill icons in the entire game (counts as 4), as well as a selection of guardian event providing and icons. If you still hold out hope of Lola Hayes, two Unexpected Courages from Improvisation will be really nice, and EVERY event is at your disposal.

I personally am going to try an event heavy Rex Murphy deck, with lots of icons to proc his special ability, including Search for the Truth.

Lucaxiom · 22
The Painted World won't attach to Crystallizer because it removes itself from the game instead of discarding, so Crystallizer can't replace the discard step with attachment (since the discard step has already been replaced). That said, she does still run a lot of events. I also really like the idea of running it with Rex Murphy. There are a lot of great seeker events with solid commit icons. — Death by Chocolate · 12
I'm still intrigued by the idea of running this in a Patrice deck once Versatile comes out. . Dunno if it would really work, but in theory it offers the chance to double her hand size. Could be worth a try at least. — Sassenach · 53
TPW interaction is ambiguous. RAW it doesn’t work because in RAW there is no timing window between ‘playing’ and ‘discarding’ an event, however RAW actually means Crystallizer (and relatedly, Wendy’s amulet) doesn’t work *at all* which means there’s an issue with written rules — Difrakt · 612
However, if changes to RAW create this timing window (this is anticipated) Crystallizer WILL work with TPW. Compare writing for TPW which creates a replacement effect, which Crystallizer can override, to Mystifying Song which never goes to the discard window because the remove from game is part of resolving the card. (Let’s pretend Marie would ever want to versatile this card) — Difrakt · 612
Even if that is an issue, and even should the suggestion you make be implemented, Crystallizer still wouldn’t work with TPW. “All aspects of an effect have timing priority over all "after..." triggering conditions that might arise as a consequence of that effect.” All of the effects of playing TPW (including the RFG substitution) have timing priority over the Crystallizer’s ‘after’ ability. By the time it resolves, the discard ‘timing window’ has already been replaced and there is nothin for the Crystallizer to replace anymore. — Death by Chocolate · 12
That’s for consequences of an effect, it doesn’t override priority for later conditions. — Difrakt · 612
Hard to give a relevant example here. If TPW was play an event and draw a card’ you couldn’t trigger Double Double until after you had already drew the card, but that has nothing to do with the creation of floating conditions (the situation we’re dealing with here) — Difrakt · 612
Right, but one of the consequences of ‘playing TFW’ is the floating replacement condition. See the FAQ on Wendy’s Amulet for the example involving Lure. Lure’s effect causes it to not be discarded at the end of resolving it. TFW does the same. The same principle applies if Wendy plays TFW (using “You Owe Me One”). YOMO would got to the bottom of her deck (after TFW was fully resolved), but TFW would not go to the bottom of Sefina’s deck. It would still RFG. (In contrast if Wendy played any other average event, that event would end up at the bottom of its owners deck, and then they’d draw cards and then YOMO gets bottom’d.) — Death by Chocolate · 12
You’re confusing applicable rules, Wendy can’t send *any* card that she doesn’t own into her deck because it’s not her out of play area, but that has nothing to do with timing priority. The rule you’re talking about has to do with trying to nest a triggering condition in between effects listed into a card, it has nothing to do with effects created once the card has resolved which is the situation we’re dealing with here. Since TPW has fully resolved its text before it hits the ‘after playing’ window there is no timing priority, and we’re back to standard conflict of timing windows, which Crystallizer of Dreams can override. — Difrakt · 612
Lure is even simpler and has nothing to do with timing priority: Wendy doesn’t bury lure into its deck because it never hits the replacement effect. If lure was ‘instead of discarding, attach’ then Wendy’s amulet would override the lure text as usual. — Difrakt · 612
Okay, first of all I never said Wendy could put *any* card into her deck. The forced effect would trigger, but since she doesn’t own the card, it would go to its owners version of that out of play zone. But that’s not the point here. In a standard conflict of timing windows ‘after’ effects resolve last. Both TPW’s actual text and the hypothetical Lure text you propose create a floating effect that has already replaced the future event of discarding with a different game effect. When Crystallizer resolves, there is no conflict because Crystallizer can’t replace an effect that has already been replaced. TPW’s replacement clause isn’t ‘waiting around’ to trigger, it has already changed the future steps of its play resolution during the resolution of its game text. — Death by Chocolate · 12
No that’s not how AHLCG works, the game is designed around a static set of timing windows and triggers that react to those timing windows. Lure doesn’t work with Wendy’s amulet because attachment prevents discard from ever occurring (read section on ‘attach to’). Wendy’s amulets forced conditions only fails because the FORCED effect only interacts at a specific point (after you play) and has a replacement condition (instead of discard) since the FORCED window expires without ever having a discard to replace that’s why amulet fails to affect lure, but again none of this applies to Crystallizer. — Difrakt · 612
You need to review the ‘instead’/replacement effect section. They don’t change future conditions intrinsically, they create a floating trigger. In this way there isn’t a distinction between TPW and Crystallizer — Difrakt · 612
Jesus Christ Guys. What happened while I was away?! — Lucaxiom · 22
Thank you for directing me to the ‘instead’ entry. So, TPW would need to specify ‘would’ to ensure itself. Without that, the Crystallizer is the most recent replacement and thus takes precedent. — Death by Chocolate · 12